WCC fan bemoans bottom-feeding BYU basketball

[Mars]

http://wccboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13 ... 8e826b2aec

[hawkwing]

He makes some good points. BYU consistently has the absolute best talent in the west and yet struggles to win against bad teams and at best barely makes the NCAA tournament or falls to the NIT. It really is a head scratcher to me too. And every single year the only thing fans say is "Next year, it will be better because so-and-so will have 1 year back from his mission." but every year there's a new so-and-so who just got off his mission, and the situation never changes.

[Mars]

The WCC has two Top 15-ranked teams; Gonzaga is ranked #8 with two AP/Coaches Top 25 wins. St. Mary's is ranked #12.

Gonzaga and St. Mary's are both undefeated; Gonzaga is 8-0. St. Mary's is 6-0.
San Francisco is 7-1 and on a 3-game winning streak.
San Fran is 5-0 at home, while Pacific is 3-0 at home.
Portland is 1-0 on the road (Gonzaga has yet to play a true road game this season).
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... conference

Gonzaga and St. Mary's both have Top 10 RPIS, of #9 and #4 respectively.
Gonzaga has a Top 10 win according to RPI, over #7 Florida.
St. Mary's has three Top 50 RPI wins, over #41 Nevada, at #26 Dayton, and at #47 Stanford.
Portland's RPI is #136.
http://www.realtimerpi.com/rpi_wcc_Men.html

RPIforecast is projecting Gonzaga, St. Mary's, and BYU to finish with RPIs of #10, #16, and #74.
http://www.rpiforecast.com/confs/WCC.html

Sagarin rankings show three Top 50 WCC teams; Gonzaga, St. Mary's, and BYU are #17, #38, and #41.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/ncaab/sa ... onference/

[ABYUFAN]

Anyone who uses the term “play in game” loses most if not all credibility to me. Clearly this guy either knows very little about something as basic as the tournament, or is choosing to ignore reality to try to make his point. Either way it doesn’t look good for him.
BYU has a very bad loss this year, (and fi8nds a way to lose to bad teams on a regular basis) but BYU constantly schedules tougher games than any other WCC school except Gonzaga. Haws will have to become a completely different player than he now is fir BYU to have a chance to win the WCC this year, and he may still do it, but only time will tell

[Gunk]

We've failed to own the WCC. Just about any Rose team before 2010 would have destroyed the WCC. I have a few theories:

1) Since joining the WCC, we've played "down." Between SDSU, New Mexico, UNLV, Utah and even Air Force there for a bit the MWC had some solid teams. We couldn't afford to take a team/game for granted. We had to prove ourselves. The WCC is a weaker conference and it got to our heads. We came in entitled, got smacked in the face, and haven't recovered. Mentally, our team just isn't there. The hunger is gone. Rather than fighting, it's like we're defending. But what? 2nd or 3rd place?
2) Sadly, I don't think Rose has been the same coach since his bout with cancer. You used to hear how intense he was and how the players feared/respected that intensity.
3) Jimmer was the best and worst thing for BYU. Jimmer was a ball hog, but we cheered him for it because he was so spectacular. Rose himself said he wished Jimmer wouldn't have taken many of the shots he did, but away Jimmer would bomb and make them. Jimmer basically dared Rose to reign him in and Rose balked. The exposure, the entertainment was great. We got to the Sweet 16, which I am sure attracted more talented players. However, those more talented players have egos and want to be the next "Jimmer."
4) Loss of team ball. BYU teams used to thrive off of being scrappy. We won because we hustled on defense and beat teams down the court. Our roster was full of 2 and the occasional 3 star recruit. We played with chips on our shoulders, out to prove a bunch Mormons can play ball too. The players looked to Rose to captain them and scheme a way to win. They played for Rose not to fill a stat sheet so they could get drafted. Remember how we used to be thrilled when a BYU player was good enough to play Euro ball? I would trade any of those early Rose teams for the one we have now. The influx of talent has eroded trust in Rose and the concept of team ball.

[frdbtr]

The problem isn't ball hogging or Rose not being intense, it is defense. BYU hasn't played defense since Jackson Emery graduated. The WCC is a guard driven league and BYU's guards constantly get owned by the WCC guards because none of them can play defense. Rose has tried to hide this by playing zones but that hasn't worked either.

[Gunk]

The problem isn't ball hogging or Rose not being intense, it is defense. BYU hasn't played defense since Jackson Emery graduated. The WCC is a guard driven league and BYU's guards constantly get owned by the WCC guards because none of them can play defense. Rose has tried to hide this by playing zones but that hasn't worked either.

Defense is largely a product of coaching and player intensity.

Supposedly, we have one of the most if not the most talented team in BYU history, yet our defense is garbage. If they are superior talents then why aren't they playing superior defense compared to past teams?

[frdbtr]

The problem isn't ball hogging or Rose not being intense, it is defense. BYU hasn't played defense since Jackson Emery graduated. The WCC is a guard driven league and BYU's guards constantly get owned by the WCC guards because none of them can play defense. Rose has tried to hide this by playing zones but that hasn't worked either.

Defense is largely a product of coaching and player intensity.

Supposedly, we have one of the most if not the most talented team in BYU history, yet our defense is garbage. If they are superior talents then why aren't they playing superior defense compared to past teams?

Offensive talent doesn't always translate to defense. you are right that defense takes effort but for some reason BYU can't get its guys to play it. I don't know the coach who was here in 2010 but since he left, BYU's defense has sucked.

[BlueK]

He makes some good points. BYU consistently has the absolute best talent in the west and yet struggles to win against bad teams and at best barely makes the NCAA tournament or falls to the NIT. It really is a head scratcher to me too. And every single year the only thing fans say is "Next year, it will be better because so-and-so will have 1 year back from his mission." but every year there's a new so-and-so who just got off his mission, and the situation never changes.

you think we consistently have better talent than everyone in the Pac 12 and Gonzaga? Saying we're absolutely the most talented in the west every year is a pretty high claim that I don't see much evidence for. This year we have espn top 100 players which we haven't had in the past. So far they are taking a while to come together. We'll see what happens. But the talent level starting with this season is higher than in the past unless you think it's not been correctly evaluated. There is still a lot of time left this season to see what happens.

Rose's recruiting took a serious dive for a few years while Jimmer was here and for a year or two after, until it improved a lot starting around 2014, at least as measured by recruiting rankings. The problem is until this season we've had very few of those players see the court yet. Yes, they're having some growing pains so far, but your overall assessment of the past and our talent I think is way off.

[BlueK]

http://wccboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13 ... 8e826b2aec

BYU hasn't performed at a level as high as we would have hoped since joining the WCC, but even many BYU fans I think incorrectly think St Mary's has done way better. Let's see below. I think you can only make a credible case for St. Mary's for the first two years so far.

2012 BYU NCAA tournament. Won a first four game, lost next round
2013 BYU NIT final four
2014 BYU NCAA tournament -- 10 seed. Lost first game right after Collinsworth knee injury
2015 BYU NCAA tournament -- lost first four game.
2016 BYU NIT final four

St. Marys
2012 NCAA tournament. 7 seed -- lost first game to 10 seed
2013 NCAA tournament -- won first four game, lost next round
2014 NIT -- lost in 2nd round
2015 NIT -- lost in 1st round
2016 NIT -- lost by 20 to Valpo in quarterfinals

Head to head:
BYU lost its first four games against SMC during the first two years in the WCC. Since then we've won 4 and lost 2.