CougarCorner

Re: There are no smart gun laws

2018-03-06T21:56:01-06:00

Absolutely. I'll wait for you or Mars to give me one example of a good that the government yielded to private markets that has decreased in volume produced. Airplanes, telephones, you name it, when the government gets out of any business, options improve tremendously. And somehow even the poorest of the poor in Africa can afford their $30 smartphones.
do you mean like hospitals, railroads and the US Mail?
Write me back when the government leaves those to private businesses. Even with government subsidies, surgery centers charge significantly less for better care than hospitals, private railroads still thrive, and believe it or not there is a lot more communication these days facilitated by private email servers at google than were sent in the history of the US Mail at a fraction of the price.
Surgery centers provide significantly less services than hospitals. Surgery centers clearly as you say "decreased in volume produced".

You say that private railroads "thrive." If by "thrive" you mean we have no non-government commuter rail travel (outside of the Disneyland Railroad) and that we have fewer actual rail companies than we did 50 years ago we may agree on that point. However, your original statement was that government getting out of a business increases "options improve tremendously" In the rail business that is simply not true.

And google was not able to deliver a package for me to my son on his mission. But it was awfully nice of me to take a picture of my Christmas gift that I bought him and then email that picture to him of his gift. I also had him sign his driver's license renewal and then googled it over to the DMV for him. There are other options for parcel and letter delivery all of which cost more and were no more efficient.

Just a little FYI.
If ever given the choice of a surgery center for a surgery or a hospital. Always choose the surgery center. Always.

Statistics: Posted by BroncoBot — Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:56 pm

Re: There are no smart gun laws

2018-03-05T06:35:46-06:00

Absolutely. I'll wait for you or Mars to give me one example of a good that the government yielded to private markets that has decreased in volume produced. Airplanes, telephones, you name it, when the government gets out of any business, options improve tremendously. And somehow even the poorest of the poor in Africa can afford their $30 smartphones.
do you mean like hospitals, railroads and the US Mail?
Write me back when the government leaves those to private businesses. Even with government subsidies, surgery centers charge significantly less for better care than hospitals, private railroads still thrive, and believe it or not there is a lot more communication these days facilitated by private email servers at google than were sent in the history of the US Mail at a fraction of the price.
Surgery centers provide significantly less services than hospitals. Surgery centers clearly as you say "decreased in volume produced".

You say that private railroads "thrive." If by "thrive" you mean we have no non-government commuter rail travel (outside of the Disneyland Railroad) and that we have fewer actual rail companies than we did 50 years ago we may agree on that point. However, your original statement was that government getting out of a business increases "options improve tremendously" In the rail business that is simply not true.

And google was not able to deliver a package for me to my son on his mission. But it was awfully nice of me to take a picture of my Christmas gift that I bought him and then email that picture to him of his gift. I also had him sign his driver's license renewal and then googled it over to the DMV for him. There are other options for parcel and letter delivery all of which cost more and were no more efficient.

To be honest, rail, hospitals, and mail are pretty bad examples. Government rail is among the worst run, maintained, and most expensive travel in the US when it is touted as the most economic. And it also has the absolute worst safety record and on time record. VA hospitals, I take this personally- my father died a few years ago due to being put on the "victims" list. By the time his doctor got his treatment approved (over a year after his diagnosis), it wasn't able to save him. Had he received it when it was just a small spot when it was diagnosed, he would have been a cancer survivor. Government healthcare and hospitals always morph from what's best for the health of the patient to what is best for the health of the system. As for US mail, two words FEDEX and UPS. US mail runs millions or billions in the red every year and have the worst reputation in mail delivery in the US. I have never seen any company I have worked for send anything more than maybe post card adds and CC statements via US mail. Everything else of any importance is sent either Fedex or UPS never US mail. And if either of these companies ran them using the US Mail model they would have gone out of business years ago.
The best example of a government run program is probably the military. It is very inefficient and has a whole lot of problems but it can do one thing that is vital to the military that privatization cannot do and that is take people from all walks of life from different geographical areas and form them into one unit representing the whole country fighting under one flag.

Statistics: Posted by imuakahuku — Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:35 am

Re: Smart gun laws

2018-03-02T20:23:41-06:00

So can you link to one of those times of you conceding points (even as I'm counting)? I mean, since you've done it plenty, it shouldn't take long to find one.

And did you notice the last point I quoted? I was completely wrong on Trump. I'm glad he won. I changed my mind on that.

Statistics: Posted by SpiffCoug — Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: Smart gun laws

2018-03-02T19:46:54-06:00

I didn't start this thread to trot out all my cool proofs and arguments, but to ask others for theirs. My mind is very open on the subject, as it is on most subjects. I've changed my mind on many issues over the years. Anyone who hasn't is both ignorant and arrogant.

Statistics: Posted by Mars — Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:46 pm

Re: Smart gun laws

2018-03-02T17:54:21-06:00

how can we have "proof" of such gun laws when the laws we are discussing have NOT been enacted?

Who said I'm limiting you to the USA. Show me how gun control laws in Mexico (or anywhere else for that matter) have helped.

But there is evidence that more extensive, universal background checks reduce suicides. There is evidence that tighter gun sale restrictions reduce various forms of gun violence.

Can you cite those data please? And I don't care about gun violence. I care about all violence.

The data is hard to come by because tight gun control restrictions in say Chicago can't really be measured when someone can go outside the city limits and buy the gun and return and cause mayhem.

Who's begging the answer now. You'll explain increases in gun violence with gun control measures by saying you just need more gun control in other places. Explain then how gun violence in New Hampshire is less than anywhere in Europe despite gun ownership rates 3-10 x that in those countries or how there are fewer school shootings today than there were in the 1990s when "assault rifles" were illegal.

Third, by demanding "proof" as the only acceptable response, you exclude by definition notions of common sense. That seems unncessarily limiting.

Common sense is a load of baloney, the last refuge of those whose arguments have all failed. Give me data on how many school shootings would be averted if the age to own a gun were raised to 21 or go home.

Statistics: Posted by jvquarterback — Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:54 pm

Re: Smart gun laws

2018-03-02T18:11:04-06:00

"There's not enough data" seems to be a poor excuse to do nothing. Data is good, but lack of data need not be crippling, as long as common sense exists.

Starting a thread about smart guns laws and failing to produce any data at all that these laws would do any good. That deserves every bit of derision any of us can muster.

As for your common sense (really just an appeal to emotion) - when it precludes anyone from defending their life, liberty, or property - well you can take your common sense and do whatever you please, just keep it away from the rest of us.

As far as people conceding points. If what spiffcoug counts as conceding points I've done plenty of that ("if I'm willing to concede the point" or conceding a point you never made - come on. Here's one - will you concede your post had no point to concede in the first place). I can't think of any substantial point where I've ever seen someone change their stance publicly. I'm sure that has to do at least in part with how I grew up with street debate, but there are well validated psychology studies that show people don't really ever concede. In fact, there are groups of psychologists that believe reason exists only so we can destroy our opponents, or at least to be wary of their arguments - like the "common sense" ones the charlatans try to sneak past us.

Statistics: Posted by jvquarterback — Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:31 pm

Re: Smart gun laws

2018-03-02T16:26:41-06:00

I've never seen anyone on either side of any debate, online or otherwise, concede. You have?

Most of these arguments are just for others who read them to see the merits of both sides (or lack thereof in this case). I'm not really doing this for Boise's or Mars' sake and I don't really expect them to present any data (because there isn't any) or to publicly and shamefully concede a point. That's just not the way people are programmed.

Others will see that you can't have smart gun laws without the data to back it up. And since no one has presented data about how gun control laws make schools safer - well you get the point.

I've conceded points on this very board many, many times. Here's a few of them:
http://www.cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.p ... de#p223715

A one year dip when we first joined the WCC - even if I'm willing to concede that point - does mean we have had some "light recruiting the last couple of years" because we haven't.

http://www.cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.p ... de#p210490

I concede the point about Texas or Oklahoma coming to town drawing more interest than just WVU.

http://www.cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.p ... de#p203672

I can concede my question was poorly worded.

http://www.cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.p ... de#p130858

I've got nothing after that picture. I concede.

http://www.cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.p ... ng#p232518

Seriously though. I was #NeverTrump. I was completely wrong in what I thought would happen. I am very happy that Hillary lost. I didn't cost Trump the election, I just couldn't bring myself to vote for him.

Your turn. How many posts can you find where you said you were wrong, or concede?

Statistics: Posted by SpiffCoug — Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:26 pm

Re: Smart gun laws

2018-03-02T11:35:07-06:00

I have seen people concede, although more often they agree that there is more than one valid viewpoint and agree to disagree and end the debate.

Your method of presentation isn't going to win any unbiased third party readers. It's a total turn off.

I will concede and yield the field to Snoscythe. I do not concede grudgingly. I do it without hesitation. He's smart, considerate, a better looking man, emotionally intelligent, a sense of history (important), has great personal hygiene, dresses snappy, has strong hands and humane heart. An unbeatable combo.

Statistics: Posted by Ddawg — Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:35 am

Re: Smart gun laws

2018-03-02T11:03:59-06:00

jvqb -- honest question: In a debate online, have you ever had the other person concede?

Because the way you go about "debate" is just absolutely terrible. You got to find a better way of delivering your message.
I've never seen anyone on either side of any debate, online or otherwise, concede. You have?

Most of these arguments are just for others who read them to see the merits of both sides (or lack thereof in this case). I'm not really doing this for Boise's or Mars' sake and I don't really expect them to present any data (because there isn't any) or to publicly and shamefully concede a point. That's just not the way people are programmed.

Others will see that you can't have smart gun laws without the data to back it up. And since no one has presented data about how gun control laws make schools safer - well you get the point.

I have seen people concede, although more often they agree that there is more than one valid viewpoint and agree to disagree and end the debate.

Your method of presentation isn't going to win any unbiased third party readers. It's a total turn off.

Statistics: Posted by snoscythe — Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:03 am

Re: Smart gun laws

2018-03-02T09:24:58-06:00

jvqb -- honest question: In a debate online, have you ever had the other person concede?

Because the way you go about "debate" is just absolutely terrible. You got to find a better way of delivering your message.
I've never seen anyone on either side of any debate, online or otherwise, concede. You have?

Most of these arguments are just for others who read them to see the merits of both sides (or lack thereof in this case). I'm not really doing this for Boise's or Mars' sake and I don't really expect them to present any data (because there isn't any) or to publicly and shamefully concede a point. That's just not the way people are programmed.

Others will see that you can't have smart gun laws without the data to back it up. And since no one has presented data about how gun control laws make schools safer - well you get the point.

Your view of people is disturbing. There is NO shame in conceding a point. That's what real men and women do when the facts or the evidence indicate this. I have conceded points all my life with newer information presented. I have seen others do the same too. I can tell you are a smart guy. You write pithy responses, most apparently designed to piss as many people off as possible by insult and denigration. It is not a real good way to advance discussions or improve discourse, but if that is what floats your boat, whatever. You are smart enough too, I can tell, to know that he or she who controls the question wins the debate. And so you create the question designed upfront to win your point--give me proof that gun control laws make schools safer, knowing full well there is no "proof." You "win" in your zero sum exercise of discussion by demanding the impossible. The response is several fold. First, how can we have "proof" of such gun laws when the laws we are discussing have NOT been enacted? Second, NO ONE is stating that gun control laws in and of themselves will make schools safer. It is not the issue. Yet. in your formulation it is the ONLY issue. It need not be and in real discourse elsewhere gun control laws are not the sine qua non of school safety. Will new gun control laws help? Might they be part of the puzzle of solving gun violence in our nation? Perhaps. There is evidence that some guns laws might help. Is it proof? By your demanding proof you have again defined the answer you want up front. No evidence is not proof. But there is evidence that more extensive, universal background checks reduce suicides. There is evidence that tighter gun sale restrictions reduce various forms of gun violence. The data is hard to come by because tight gun control restrictions in say Chicago can't really be measured when someone can go outside the city limits and buy the gun and return and cause mayhem. Third, by demanding "proof" as the only acceptable response, you exclude by definition notions of common sense. That seems unncessarily limiting.
FInally, to answer one of your earlier questions, yes I know what a straw man argument is. I deal with such virtually every single day.

Statistics: Posted by BoiseBYU — Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:24 am