CougarCorner

Re: Harmon: TY was a scapegoat

2017-11-29T01:46:09-06:00

1- I think some offensive coaches will be let go shortly after a new OC is named.

2- Ty hasn't even been fired. He is still being paid to act as the team's QB Coach.

Statistics: Posted by Mars — Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:46 am

Re: Harmon: TY was a scapegoat

2017-11-28T22:43:23-06:00

The offense threw the ball so much against UMASS because they had 9 guys in the box all game. BYU's offensive line laid a huge egg in that game and that is why we lost. 7 sacks guys, 7 sacks. Why did they lay such a massive egg in between huge games of dominating and rushing the ball? we may never know.

Statistics: Posted by frdbtr — Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:43 pm

Re: Harmon: TY was a scapegoat

2017-11-28T20:36:22-06:00

Was the firing justifiable?
Did Ty Detmer get to: a) pick the position coaches on his side of the ball? b) fire the position coaches on his side of the ball that didn't perform as he needed? c) ensure there was sufficient time on the practice field? d) ensure there was sufficient time in the weight room with a competent S&C coach? e) ensure there was sufficient time in the film room for all position groups on his side of the ball?

This. All day long, this. I don't disagree that Ty was bad. Listening to him chat with Greg Wrubell, though, it's clear that he was learning and that he was on an upward trajectory. (For example, I think he moved from the run to the pass from UNLV to UMASS because he figured that UMASS would have seen the effective run game vs UNLV and would have prepared for it; therefore, he focused on the passing game--figuring that UMASS would not have prepared for that (then when he got behind, he got scared, worried that Sitake was breathing down his neck and telling the media that he wanted to see BYU 'air it out' so he doubled down on the pass). That game theory works in the NFL where you can have offenses and defenses that can switch relative strengths, but not with BYU this year who had gone through so many changes at all of the skill positions that they never had an identity. UNLV finally gave them a bit of an identity and in his inexperience as a college OC he made a bad strategic decision. He acknowledged that mistake with Wrubell following UMASS and corrected it with Hawai'i.)

But back to the point--yes, Ty had a miserable year, but he acknowledged his mistakes. I haven't seen anything that indicates that the S&C coach has learned anything this year. In fact, Sitake has doubled down on defending him--something he never did for Ty (and in fact, did the opposite). Losing 37 on the 2-deep is unprecedented, and a guy as inexperienced as Ty couldn't figure out how to adjust enough to come up with some wins. In my mind, the problem starts with work ethic/culture and conditioning. And THIS is why I think Ty is the scapegoat. Because the root causes of the problem are not addressed, only the symptoms are.

Statistics: Posted by CrimsonCoug — Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Harmon: TY was a scapegoat

2017-11-28T19:05:10-06:00

OC with 120th ranked offense fired, people cry "Skapegoat!" Those people are idiots.

Apparently you did not get the memo ......

Please remember we can have discussions with respect to each other and in the choice of words we use. Lets not get this thread locked because we're passionate about a topic and cannot find a way to eloquently express our opinions.

Savvy?

Statistics: Posted by Ddawg — Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:05 pm

Re: Harmon: TY was a scapegoat

2017-11-28T17:47:53-06:00

I watched a soft passive team on both sides of the ball all year. Ty's offense was horrible but the defense was not physical and did not dominate anyone including PSU. They held the scores down but also gave up 14 play 90 yard clock consuming drives on a game basis which allowed bad teams to end up winning the game. I don't care what the scoring defense stats say, the defense was bad too. IMO this entire experiment has been a failure and the fact that Ty detmer was the first to lose his job makes him the scapegoat.

Statistics: Posted by frdbtr — Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:47 pm

Re: Harmon: TY was a scapegoat

2017-11-28T17:41:16-06:00

Top 60 Defense in yards/points vs Top 120 Offense in yards/points is hardly comparable, statistically.

If we had an offense that finished in the top 70-100 in most categories, the team would be preparing for a bowl game 3 weeks away. That would likely translate to the win over UMass and at least one more win out of Fresno, ECU, Utah, and Utah St.

If the offense was in the top-50 in scoring and rushing, etc., we would likely have 8 or 9 wins.

While the defense was not good, the defense did enough for BYU to win all but perhaps 3 or 4 games. If you watched any BYU football this year, you would easily identify that the offense was terrible and much more of a problem for the team than the defense or special teams.

Statistics: Posted by YNot — Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:41 pm

Re: Harmon: TY was a scapegoat

2017-11-28T17:36:45-06:00

OC with 120th ranked offense fired, people cry "Skapegoat!" Those people are idiots.
But no one has lost their job on the Defensive (i.e. Kalani's) side of the ball over the:

#104 Pass Efficiency Defense
#90 3rd/4th Down Conversion Defense
#116 Team Sacks
#110 Yards Per Completion Defense
#120 Team Tackles Per Loss

Instead we've apparently told our leading tackler and team captain that he's too short to stick around for his senior season because getting taller at Mike fixes all of that.

That's when it starts to look scape-goaty.

#49 Scoring Defense
No part of this team was good this year. But the offense was exceptionally bad.

Statistics: Posted by pikoi — Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:36 pm

Re: Harmon: TY was a scapegoat

2017-11-28T17:08:26-06:00

Was the firing justifiable?
Did Ty Detmer get to: a) pick the position coaches on his side of the ball? b) fire the position coaches on his side of the ball that didn't perform as he needed? c) ensure there was sufficient time on the practice field? d) ensure there was sufficient time in the weight room with a competent S&C coach? e) ensure there was sufficient time in the film room for all position groups on his side of the ball?
From a simplistic macro view: sure it is justifiable. But, if all the other problems we have heard about are true, and if Ty wasn't given the control to fix things on his side of the ball, then I don't think it was justifiable. We will never know the answer to these questions (or maybe we will at some point) ... so it's just a debate now. But for me, I've seen enough bad decisions and protection of friends that I have my doubts.

Therefore, in my mind, Ty is a scapegoat because he is being held responsible for the HC's decisions, Ty is getting axed when injuries caused problems that no OC could have handled, Ty is getting axed when installing a pro-style offense takes more than 2 years, and Ty hasn't coached a single guy he recruited. Ty is deserving of some blame ... but not all of it. That is why I think of Ty as a scapegoat ... he was sacrificed to hide the sins of the others.

Statistics: Posted by mtnradio — Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:08 pm

Re: Harmon: TY was a scapegoat

2017-11-28T17:00:54-06:00

Ty's firing was completely understandable and likely deserved. He just should have been joined by others. Consider
After 26 games leading the BYU offense:
the Cougars scored more points than our opponents allowed just seven times (none of which occurred this year) or 26.9% of the time.
the Cougars gained more total yards than our opponents allowed just six times (only twice in 2017) or 23.1% of the time.
the Cougars gained more rushing yards than our opponents allowed just 14 times (just four times in 2017) or 53.8% of the time.
the Cougars gained more passing yards than our opponents allowed just eight times (just five times in 2017) or 30.8% of the time.
the Cougars bested our opponents defensive passing efficiency rating just four times (twice each year) or 15.4% of the time.
Under Ty Detmer, BYU beat those opposing defensive averages just 39 times out of the 130 opportunities or 30% of the time. Football isn't baseball and a 30% success rate isn't good and is most certainly a firable offense. He just should have been joined by several other coaches who similarly failed to produce.

I would be shocked if Ty was the only staff change. It sounds like the new OC will be able to pick his own staff. I imagine a few more heads will roll.

Statistics: Posted by mormonrasta — Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:00 pm

Re: Harmon: TY was a scapegoat

2017-11-28T16:45:48-06:00

He just should have been joined by others. . . . He just should have been joined by several other coaches who similarly failed to produce.

That's the point. No one else has felt the axe, and that's what makes an otherwise justifiable firing look like a scapegoat.

I think some people are confused or on different pages as to what it means to be a scapegoat. Doesn't mean the firing wasn't justified, in my mind saying he's a scapegoat means that he is being unfairly blamed for others' failures even within a justifiable dismissal.

Statistics: Posted by snoscythe — Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:45 pm